Belief in Fiver

[Azerane]

Excuse any incorrect references to the book here, I left my copy in the U.S. in anticipation of moving there later this year. Anyway, I have always wondered, after journeying to the Down from Sandleford, encountering the rabbits of Cowslips warren amidst Fiver's other warnings and feelings, why after all that does Hazel still decide that it's a good idea to go on the farm raid with Blackberry and Dandelion(? or another character.)

Hazel, above all other rabbits has reason to believe Fiver. Firstly since they are brothers, Hazel has known about Fiver's ability his whole life and has seen how accurate it is time and time again. And yet he still reprimands Fiver and ignores his warnings for the farm raid. It just perhaps seem a bit out of character. Or is it a more developed stubborn streak kicking in? Hazel has always seemed to be dedicated to carrying through with any plan he has, and perhaps it is a result of that attribute. Yet you would still think he would re-think his plans according to Fiver's vision.

Thoughts?

[dettoborgia]

Interesting question, I wanted to respond to the thread's title from a different point of view. I am really impressed with how much faith Hazel had in Fiver in the beginning, when the advice he gave was so drastic and the premonition was so vague and impossible to corroborate at the time.



I came back today to see if there was any discussion of Fiver on these boards, because this week I've had a nervous tremor again, something that hasn't affected me in a few years, but it made me identify with Fiver in a way when it came back. I really dislike the way people react when they see you visibly nervous, shaking. They seem judgmental even when they say nothing, and if they act sympathetic they act overly sensitive as if you were out of control. So I can easily imagine people dismissing Fiver's premonitions, no matter how well they knew him, just because of how physically nervous he becomes.

I don't think what's bothering me is all that similar to Fiver's sixth sense for danger, but I can relate to not being taken seriously because you come across as fearful to the point of being irrational. For me a nervous tremor is involuntary, not an all-consuming anxiety but a symptom in my hand that I have underlying anxieties that are otherwise under control. It started out as a medication side effect that had nothing to do with my state of mind, but now that the side effect has gone away the tremor only returns when I really am at least a bit uneasy. When I see how people react to the tremor I feel surprised and offended, it seems like an overstatement of how uneasy I think I am. But reflecting on the story in WD I thought today that maybe it serves a purpose. In the sense that it forces me to acknowledge feelings that might seem socially inappropriate, maybe like an instinct that I should be more afraid than I think is appropriate. I wouldn't pay as much attention to those feelings even privately, if they didn't become a source of embarrassment because of the tremor.

[Azerane]

That's certainly an interesting point, an angle which I had certainly not previously considered Fiver from. In terms of the other rabbits wanting nothing to do with him because of the physical symptoms like shaking, not to mention towards the end when he's in the honeycomb and has the vision about the dog before passing out. Even the sound of him in that sequence makes the Efrafan rabbits want to leave. I suppose in another rabbit's eyes, physical shaking could be a symptom of illness or disease, so he would instinctively be avoided to prevent it spreading. But it's simply a symptom of how drastic/emotional of a vision he has had.

I have had nervous shaking before, but I don't think it was really in a social setting, except maybe when I was in line to ride some roller coasters, hehe. So I can't really comment on it from a personal aspect.

[Blackavar]

I always thought this was an interesting point in the book as well, and it's great to hear it from so many different perspectives.

While I thought that it was indeed a bit out of character for Hazel to be so defiant, I thought about it a little more and it makes sense. You see, at the later stages of the book the other rabbits were putting more and more faith in Hazel, so he was under a lot of pressure to step up to his responsibility as chief rabbit. This meant facing danger head on, which often meant having to ignore Fiver's advice to do so. Almost as if he was , in fact, more in-tune with fiver than ever, and took it as an opportunity to prove his worth.

so I don't think it was a case of not trusting Fiver. I think he may have trusted him more, but also took advantage of the danger to prove his worth as Chief Rabbit.

On another note, one thing that I thought was very out of character was towards the end of the book... just after the Efrafan rabbits (and Woundwort) were defeated. I was really hoping Hazel and Fiver would have a moment, or some kind of reconciliation for moments past. It just seemed like Fiver went totally bezerk, Hazel saved the day, and rode his Hrududu back home a hero. I think some kind of bonding moment to really close of the story where it all began (just the two of them) would've been fantastic. Like saying: "I've always believed in you"... instead of how it came across: "thanks for going bezerk, I took it form there and saved our asses again!".

Just my $0.02 on top of the topic!

-B

[Azerane]

I suppose in some regards, Hazel is stubborn and you are right that it was to prove himself as a leader, and would not shy away from danger that he may be sending other rabbits into. However, the other rabbits all know Fiver's worth and I doubt whether they would even question the decision to begin with. What it seems to boil down to in one regard, is not that his leadership is in question, but the fact that without any does, without those hutch does, their warren and everything Hazel has worked and lead them there for, is all for nothing. Imagine being the chief rabbit of a warren without does, you're not going to be chief for long because a) your warren will die out, or b) the rabbits you're leading won't stand around and do nothing about it once the need for does reaches a certain point. So the raid isn't simply a matter of proving himself, but about Hazel's own fears of preventing some sort of disaster, which rather ironically happens because he's trying to prevent one (fetching the does from Efrafa).

I do somewhat agree with your point regarding the fact that it would have been nice to have a reconciling moment between the two at the end of the book to tie it all together, as we start the book with the brothers, would be nice to have an ending for it too. As a reader, though it may seem that Fiver did go crazy, at the same time, we know that without his moment of his shaking and vision about a dog being loose in the wood, they would never have defeated the Efrafans in the first place. This can be turned around though and thanks must be shed for Fiver without whose vision they would never have gone to get the dog. But you're right, Fiver is never mentioned in that regard and Hazel is the one who returns the hero. While it's true he did put himself out there to go and get the dog, recognition must be given where it is deserved.

[dettoborgia]

May 24, 2012 16:09:39 GMT 9.5 Blackavar said:

. Almost as if he was , in fact, more in-tune with fiver than ever, and took it as an opportunity to prove his worth.

Now that you put it that way, I remember it like this too. That would be my explanation for why Hazel goes to the farm in spite of Fiver's warning, not so much out of disbelief as out of foolhardy determination to give the warren a future, even knowing that he could lose his life in the effort.

[Hlaoinle]

Hazel believed Fiver, which is why he stayed out of the farmyard. He was so determined to bring back does from the farm, however, that he was not as cautious as he should have been. On top of this, Fiver's feeling was pretty vague. He said it was not the raid that bothered him, but something to do with Hazel.

I think Hazel was flippant about the warning for many reasons. He was a new Cheif Rabbit and wanted to prove that he was just as able to provide for the warren as the rabbits who risked themselves on the trip to Efrafa. It made him feel like less of a leader and his extreme admiration of El-Ahrairah made him want an adventure of his own that aided his people. Like Fiver said, Hazel was being a show off. He wanted to prove that he was capable and tricky and he wanted to prove it to the rabbits who just might lose a bit of respect for him given that he had stayed behind. I think this is very much in Hazel's personality.

Did anyone ever think that without Fiver's warning, Hazel may never have been shot? Hazel stayed out of the yard because Fiver had a feeling. Perhaps if he had gone with his orginal plan to go in the yard himself, he may have avoided being shot altogether (nbone of the rabbits who were in the yard were shot, they escaped). He was in that place at that time because of Fiver's warning.

The warren's respect for Fiver is evident in the end. Fiver sort of turns off a little to everyone, he went away and did not entirely come back. There were several mentions of Fiver in the end about how the other rabbits treated him, they all knew he had saved their lives more than once and respected him despite the fact that he no longer was social with them. I think Fiver had lots of respect in the end, and even though, I would have liked to have seen a Hazel/Fiver moment, I think Fiver was given plenty of credit.

[Azerane]

Sept 12, 2012 3:27:33 GMT 9.5 Hlaoinle said:

Did anyone ever think that without Fiver's warning, Hazel may never have been shot? Hazel stayed out of the yard because Fiver had a feeling. Perhaps if he had gone with his orginal plan to go in the yard himself, he may have avoided being shot altogether (nbone of the rabbits who were in the yard were shot, they escaped). He was in that place at that time because of Fiver's warning.

Ahh yes, that certainly is an argument, one that has been looked at over and over again in many movies etc. The theory that the very act of trying to prevent what you were warned against, is what causes it. Certainly a valid point, but not something that I ever associated with Fiver as he was always warning them off things that were beyond their control (the destruction of the Sandleford Warren, the strangeness of Strawberry's warren), but to warn someone off from themselves is a completely different matter. If Hazel had not gone altogether, he would not have gotten shot, but one of the others may have been shot or taken by the cat.